Interview: Ben Woods Talks About New Album 'Dispeller'

To echo the words of fellow Lyttelton sonic adventurer Delaney Davidson, songwriter Ben Woods revealed a rough diamond to the world last month in the form of his second studio album Dispeller. A compelling, intimate and at times almost rickety sounding nine song collection that has already attracted praise from such international tastemakers as The Quietus, Dispeller's local contributors include Alastair Galbraith (A Handful of Dust), Charlotte Forrester (Womb, CRUSH), Lucy Hunter (Opposite Sex / Wet Specimen) and Marlon Williams. Touring his new record nationwide from early September onwards, the recent guest star of our Trash Recital series spoke about the many ideas percolating through Dispeller with Ali Nicholls. Read below and scroll down to watch the album's accompanying short film, directed by Martin Sagadin...

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Ali Nicholls: Ok, so let’s get into it! What do you like about music?

Ben Woods: That’s a big one! I guess the first thing that comes to mind is that I feel, as somebody who is in a lot of ways perhaps restrained in their personality, the things that made me fall in love with music as a whole is that it is the space where you can project your voice. And not only your voice literally, but you can kind of build a world from your own experience sonically. When I listen to music, that's what I'm looking for. Something that is not only speaking to me in terms of songs and words and things like that, but it feels like it dips in the spaces between language, if you know what I mean.

Totally! It's such an open medium for expression.

Exactly. There’s a resonance that you can hit through a combination of sound, words, whatever you do. I like a bit of poetry… the difference for me is that you can say something very simple within music and song, but be effective — the world you're creating with music can give context.

Is there an example you could give, of when you've heard a song or an artist that inspired that world building, and that kind of 'beyond language' expression?

I always say in these interviews that when I'm doing them, I'm also trying to figure out these answers for myself. You saying that brings to mind that I liked a lot of punk music when I was younger. I think what I liked about that was that there's an... aggression might not be the right word, but there's a certain authority or, you really want to believe in yourself and what you're saying. I remember going to one show when I was younger for this band called The Evens, which is a later project of Ian MacKaye from Fugazi and Amy Farina, his partner. It was definitely one of those moments. I saw them in this tiny all ages gig out in Sumner in Christchurch. They're political, but they're also not loud like Fugazi or a lot of other punk bands are. This was a later phase for them that was just drums and one baritone guitar. I often think about that in regards not to what I'm doing, but how it effected me. It's music that is quite acoustic in a lot of ways but it holds a lot of power just in its personality and its message. I think that was a big one for me.

And then, from there bands that everyone loves in certain spheres like Sonic Youth and stuff like that, which is kind of the same, in that they build worlds in a different way with different sounds than people were used to at the time and experimenting with things. Maybe they have less of a pointed message than a lot of punk music does, but because they're experimenting with sound the world is completely different. It's through that rather than words or power.

Some people can do it with words and some people can do it with music. I just love both of those things. Whenever something is authentic, it doesn't have to be weird to be authentic, but you know when you can really feel someone's world or someone's personality through the way they play or what they're saying. I fall in love with that for sure. I'm definitely invested in both. I think there’s jazz musicians that do the same thing instrumentally, you know? I really try to have both sides of that I suppose. As best as I can.

You can hear that a lot in the music, you playing around with these atmospheric environmental sounds but then also the technological effects you get in the production, and then the vocals being quite atonal, and the way that I experience it when I listen is that it's coming right from that emotional core. But because it's quite a soundscape that you're creating, it doesn't feel like someone's just picked up a guitar and is singing at you. There's a balance of intimacy and being a little bit far away.

I feel like making my first album (Put), I was quite careful. It was the first thing that I'd done on my own, you know? Whereas with this one, from that experience I learnt and appreciated, and figured out what I enjoy listening to in music. I put some more thought into that. Because, it's always so different when you apply these things to yourself versus other things you really like, cause you don't even think about why you like them… Like I said, during that first record I was so careful. I feel like with this one I could be intuitive and do whatever came to me, and that that would probably be the most honest representation of my world. That was definitely a big part of it for me –– accepting that. Not imperfection cause I'm trying to be sloppy, but feeding into that kind of organic sound. That was the feeling I was trying to ride the whole way through it.

That conversation attitude of allowing your process and the things you're working with, and the people you're working with, including the feedback loop of it.

Yeah 100%. You put something out there and instead of looking for something, you're waiting to receive something. Maybe that could sound pretentious to some people, but that's definitely how I feel about it. That's improvisation for a lot of people, especially like jazz stuff. You hear people talking about it, and it's always like 'you do the work, and then when you actually want to create and play you just sit there and you wait to receive what that is.' I try for a bit of that for sure.

You worked with Ben Edwards on this album. It feels like such an intimate and singular project, even though there are so many collaborators that work on the album with you. Did you find the collaboration helpful to finding that expression, or was it quite engineered and carefully constructed?

It kind of was both of those things. It was just me recording with Ben — Ben was engineering. The vision from the start for me was that I wanted to incorporate space and different recording techniques to try to get different sounds, and a bunch of less traditional things. There's always drums, guitar, and bass and all that, but I like to always have something there that you might not be able to recognise initially. A lot of that will come from how we recorded it, or what instruments we're using, or production techniques and stuff. Ben was vital in that 100%. It was a very intimate relationship between me and him, because it was just us two for a long time. Then once we finished that process… well I love albums that bear more than one voice, and it feels like in the world of it there's more than one person.

So it was definitely an intimate beginning process, but then as the songs took shape that informed who I thought might be good to collaborate with. When we started talking to all the people that we did get on the record, it was the same thing for them. I would just say, 'here's the song, here are my words, this is vaguely what I'm looking for, but you do your own thing in your own space and we'll see what works and what doesn't. And that was actually super exciting. I didn't necessarily know what to expect. Then we got it and put it together. That was kind of the most thrilling part of it. I had an idea of what I was doing, but having other people get involved... all the people on the record I'm definitely a fan of. I got to reap the benefits of that and throw it all together and do some studio magic and make it all sit beautifully. Take the bits you like and toss them up and take the bits that you weren't expecting and push them back…

I can totally see with the collabs that you have that the music is part of the same family, even though I would say that you have a very unique perspective that you're bringing.

It's funny eh. Sometimes when I hear it, it speaks to that world or whatever it is… When I listen to it, which I sometimes do on my own, I really love it. It sits with me. The first one, I do also enjoy because it speaks to a time and place when I was so much more careful. Whereas this feels like it sits within my own subconscious or something. It feels like home.

We started recording it more than two years ago or three years ago, it took a while cause of all the pandemic stuff. And now I've got a whole new vision for this new one that I've just finished writing and will start recording soon. Even so, Dispeller feels better almost, because that world kind of feels like home from a different time.

2021's standalone single 'Body Rhyme' was released during the time between Put and Dispeller:

When you were younger did you play Singstar?

Yeah I played Singstar!

Well you know how it plays your voice back to you at the end and it's like, horrible?

Yes, yes. Absolutely.

I feel like part of the reason it’s so horrible is because you're trying to imitate another song.

100%!

And that feeling of horror from hearing yourself singing ‘Material Girl’ when you're not Madonna... But with the process of allowing the ambience of the studio to be present in the recording, and you don't have a specific vision of a song that you want to sound exactly a certain way, but rather responding to the feedback loop — getting something more authentic, that permission for it to sound however it's gonna sound. It's kind of the opposite of the Singstar dilemma.

That brings to mind something that I haven't really thought about too much recently. I studied at the music school down here, at the jazz school. It was a pretty good experience that I got a lot out of for sure, but I wasn't a great student. I think part of that felt like what you're saying. You can follow two different paths, or maybe you can follow both if you're committed and have more time than I do. But I feel like I wasn't that comfortable there, because it felt like trying to learn everybody else's languages. I think the goal with music education is that if you learn all the different languages of sound, then you have all the tools and assets to make your own. Whereas for me, I think I was really invested in just trying to figure that out without having to know everything before I did, without having all of those assets. To just go for it and, and let that inform itself. I feel like that speaks of how I go about things.

My interest informs wherever I'm gonna be going, and it might not always be perfect immediately, but I feel like I'm passionate enough and can sacrifice enough to invest the time into just following that weird train until it leads me somewhere. It's a lot of work but it can lead me somewhere happy, and then it really sounds and feels like me as opposed to me through the lens of all of these resources that I might have trained with. A lot of the stuff I listen to is not sloppy, but some of the musicians and people don’t appear well trained, in a classic sense you know? I feel like all those gaps… I think of someone like Mick Turner or Jim White of Dirty Three who always collaborate with lots of different people... Moon Pix by Cat Power, that was definitely a defining moment for me in regards to feeling like something is absolutely perfect and you wouldn't change it but if you were to try to notate it… It would be really really hard because there is kind of a sloppiness. It's free, but it's still simple and harmonic and melodic music. That album definitely made me go, 'you can waver and go between the cracks of timing and harmony and find something that actually sits better than if you were to try to carefully position yourself.'

Do you find that kind of attitude translates into other aspects of your life?

If you ask people in my life I'm sure they'd say that I'm quite impulsive and maybe not easygoing. Sometimes it's a problem, like when I need to plan to do something in the day, I don't skirt around it and I get it done. But, through the process of getting it done, I'll start going on 100 other things that take my interest at any given moment. And then go back to it. I guess it's intuitive but it's not intentional, it's kind of stressful. That's my default. If I have a day to my own at home I probably won't get much done, but I will gravitate towards a lot of things. Maybe that's it! Maybe that's why I had to do this this way. I feel like in my personal life, it’s not a great thing. I have to make lists If I want to get shit done. I have to remind myself repeatedly. But I think that mode for me is really wonderful in terms of when I'm being creative, because I can just drift between things, and find something that feels comfortable and just move with it. Whether it's songwriting or being in the studio.

I have a little studio space here that I go to in the afternoon, and whenever I do that's exactly what happens. It's just a small space that I have to myself… Sometimes I have manage-y boring stuff to do, but I usually just go there, and just know that I have invested the time, and whatever happens it's gonna be the only thing that would have happened. Because if I force it, or try to force that feeling, it's just gonna get too hard. Like self-editing. I definitely have more time for editing when I've got some stuff done and I'm seeing things start to take shape. But in terms of letting stuff out, you've just got to turn the tap on and try your best. It's not always good, but I don't think there's a better way.

Where can we find your stuff? And what's this about a tour?

The film that we did as part of the album is up on YouTube [watch below]. It is great, it's one of my favourite parts of the album, the fact that I did that. I think because it's hitting something visual, it's my friends and collaborators… It feels very concretely of the time. And there's also some demos in there and favourite places, where I grew up and where I am now. I absolutely love it and I want people to see it! The tour kicks off in September, we're playing the centres, got some in stores and stuff. In terms of buying the music, Bandcamp is the winner. We've got CDs and merch there, and you can preorder your vinyls which should be there in a couple of weeks hopefully! [They’ve arrived! Get one now from your favourite independent local record store, or Ben’s Bandcamp.]

Thanks so much for the yarn!

'Dispeller' is out now via Melted Ice Cream (NZ) / Shrimper (USA) / Meritorio (EU/UK) — tour details HERE.